We could all blog for hours on this one....
Seems the immigration issue is a hot button.... To clarify, I never said that anyone lives in a 'panacea in our nice little neighborhood ' But I bet you don't have to deal with other 'cultures' like I do, it's certainly not being shoved down your throat, that's all. as for the article you sent me, what was your point exactly?
Nice qoutes, actually... "When you come here, you come to work, not to harm anyone," said Alvaro Soto, 45, who moved to Maryland last month after spending a year in New York. He said he sends money home to his family in Guatemala." ....So taking non taxed american dollars and sending it out of the country so it can never reenter our economy... Fantastic!! That's not hurting anyone....
Gustavo Torres, executive director of CASA of Maryland, said his organization is training people to observe and take photos of the Minutemen's members. "If they keep harassing our community, we are going to demonstrate in front of their houses and in front of their workplaces to let the neighborhood know how anti-immigrant they are," he said. "It's going to be a shame for their family.".... Not really, because there is nothing illegal about the Minutemen taking pictures and they (the American citizens) have the rights of this country to show that (unless they plan to sell them for profit or to associate the images with a product or company, don't think that's going to happen)......
As for the few incidents where someone may have pointed a laser pointer, don't look in that direction..... If you weren't standing on the corner trying to get someone to hire you illegally, you wouldnt have been in the way of that laser beam.
The last thing we should do is make anything easier for those people who are breaking the law, why don't we just leave all the bank vaults open, how about that? can't blame the bank robbers that way, for that matter, bank robbers should be let go because most of the time they aren't caught breaking in, so it must not be a crime.... Anything that is bad for our SOCIETY in any way (financially or otherwise) should not be assisted further by the government, it should be regulated as law requires. Wonder what kind of national debt we would have if there wasn't so much of our money going elsewhere or if the government was getting everything they should be getting from all those who live here. ( Some of the workers here live 10 to an apartment, file married {although they are single} and take 4 or 5 deductions, so the most they are paying per check is $5.00, what kind of crap is that? ).
Anyway, this is a discussion that could take years, so lets leave it at this: We live in different places, we have different opinions, and that is one of the joys of being a legal citizen of the United States of America. I'll continue to be 'ignorant' as I'm sure that's what you think, and you can continue to be 'hearts and flowers' for that is certainly what I think.
posted by Big Red @ 8:40 AM
7 Comments
7 Comments:
The article was intended to show that Vegas is not the only area affected by immigrant workers. Here in Gaithersburg we have day laborers in parking lots too -- at our church around the corner, at Home Depot (our general contractor friend was saying at dinner tonight that they lock in on him in HD and just about beg for work), and down in College Park on my way in to class it's the same scene. On the other side of the park from our house, the community is predominantly hispanic (not implying illegal). Just about everywhere, spanish is heard almost as frequently as english.
I'm not Mr "hearts and flowers" -- that's what pisses me off. I don't fault you for not knowing how global/macro-economics works, but rest assured that sending money abroad does not hurt the American economy. I know it might seem like it would, but I was an Econ major and I'm studying masters level Global Economic Environment right now -- we study money flow in/out of nations, so trust me on this one. And it has no bearing on the national debt, seriously, that's the government spending more money than they bring in. If every non-tax-paying immigrant suddenly started paying income tax, plus back taxes for the last 5 years owed, it wouldn't put a dent in the deficit nor the debt.
The laser pointer thing -- you need to work on your reading comprehension... The 'victim' of the laser pointer was one of the Minutemen, not one of the immigrants. The Minutemen-guy was trying to take pictures of the workers, and I suspect somebody pointed the laser at the camera lens. Does that change your opinion of the incident?
Why do you keep bringing up the fact that some immigrants live 10 to an apartment? How is that any of your concern? Our own parents lived 6 or 8 or 10 to an apartment (the "House of New Wine"... could you get anymore hippy than that?) -- is that supposed to indicate some kind of character flaw?
At first I thought your bank analogy was pointless (Reductio Ad Absurdum), but I think I found a point in it: we guard banks because they contain money that we value and we don't want people to steal. What is it that you hope to "protect" from these immigrants? What do you feel they are "stealing"? Is it jobs? They are taking the jobs American citizens won't do - or jobs that Americans will only do if they are paid much more (sometimes minimum wage is much more). Is it social services? If so, fix the social services system so that it can't be exploited by illegal immigrants or opportunistic American citizens. Fix the system, don't blame the immigrants. If you want to compare freeloading immigrants to freeloading American citizens, I would put money on citizens using up WAY more resources (without making a contribution to the country or economy) than immigrants doing the same.
LET ME SAY THIS SLOWLY SO MAYBE YOU WILL HEAR ME THIS TIME -- I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF IMMIGRANTS GETTING ANY SERVICES WITHOUT PAYING FOR THEM (includes healthcare, housing assistance, job placement, welfare -- you name it). AND ANY IMMIGRANT FOUND GUILTY OF A COMMITING A CRIME SHOULD BE DEPORTED. of course, I have a problem with immigration being considered one of those crimes -- one of the great things about America was supposed to be that we didn't have to "show your papers/documentation" whenever the police questioned you. there should be no need to prove citizenship unless you are trying to do something only a citizen is permitted to do (like vote, or run for office). so lack of citizenship papers, visas, or permits should not be a crime. the last thing America was supposed to be about was the government tracking people all the time -- "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" people.
on the issues of services and criminal activity, I think I am being plenty strict. I just don't think we can somehow round up all the "illegals" and deport them without becoming a police-state, where all of us American citizens lose our freedoms in the process.
PLUS, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN FAVOR OF SECURING THE BORDERS -- this is a no brainer.
Have I at least convinced you that I'm not "hearts and flowers", not a liberal, not a "bleeding heart"?
Now as for you, I don't think you're being ignorant. What I am sensing is that some hate (from somewhere) is really clouding your judgement. What exactly do you feel is being "shoved down your throat"? Are you treating these people as you would wish to be treated (in thought as well as in deed)? Are you loving these people as Christ has loved you?
Hopefully shedding some light on motivation here...
The issue of ILLEGAL immigration is hot in many areas, not the least of which is Maryland and DE. What we are faced with out here, however, is the more immediate problem of secure borders. The minutemen in AZ and, to some degree Ranch Rescue are trying to draw attention to this, the underlying issue (for me, anyway).
I have a personal don't ask, don't tell policy at work. I photocopy papers, but that is it. I am filing the proper taxes, forms, etc. The rest is up to someone else.
I don't deny that these are hard-working people-- I never have. I suspect, if his back is not up, J would agree with me. What I am concerned with is the fact that, because of our lax borders, we have many people coming here who ARE NOT hard-working, honest types. They are criminals- not because they crossed into the US, but they were criminals in MX, and are bringing themselves here to escape coviction, prison (which is MX is beyond comprehension), or what-have-you.
Amnesty is not the answer. Why not? Because it has never worked in the past! The former bracero program was abused, not by the workers, but by the US companies that hired them. I understand that the process is somewhat time-consuimng, but it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE. People do it every day!!
As for anger, or hatred (though that is a little of the mark, IMHO)-- it is partially experiential and partially predisposition to hyperbole. When one works in an environemnt where one is training someone who was brought into the country, albeit leaglly, on a special visa for some supposed skill (which isn't there, or else they wouldn't need this training) and who will be quickly promoted above oneself, it tends to colour one's views. As for the other, you've know J longer than I have, but I am going to step out on a limb here as his wife and say that the blog post isn't really the best picture of his feelings on this. It is rather one dimensional.
And know, to the referee part-- J, "hearts and flowers" was not nice. CW, "you need to work on your reading comprehension" wasn't nice either.
J, We moved here when we were 14 man! Just a note. Check out my blog later.
ARG. calling someone "hearts and flowers" IS nice -- I didn't think he was being mean to me, it's just that it is SO INACCURATE regarding my position. my comment about his understanding of the article was accurate, on the other hand, though it might not have been very nice. I'm only a little sorry about that -- frankly, I felt like he was attacking my wife's comments, so I got defensive. deport me. (ha ha)
Can't. The time has passed for that. It is extremely difficult to revoke citizenship.
And I think it very good that you defend your wife.
Sorry I'm late checking in here--I've had quite a week. But Cj, thanks for your defense of me! It's ok, I've got it.
Well, I certainly don't think you're ignorant, as you think I am. But the statement that I don't have to deal with other cultures as you do is plain wrong. That is the point of the link to the article that I posted. 40% of the population of the county we live in is foreign born. That healthcare that can't be denied to someone in need, regardless of ability to pay--where do you think I work? And the hospital legally has to make accommodations for the fact that they don't speak English--whether here legally or not.
The point of that article was that that church is the one, practically within walking distance of our house, that we attend. No, we don't see illegal immigration issues in our area. (And I do apologize for my misuse of the word "panacea", when I meant to say "utopia".) And there ARE crime issues related to this. Google "MS-13 Maryland" and see what comes up (I didn't take the time to do it; I see it on the news all the time).
I guess the other thing that gets my dander up is your repeated assertion that you are a LEGAL immigrant, that you did it the right way, and so everyone should. In your family's efforts to make a better life for yourselves, there really was very little struggle involved, especially in comparison to these people that you now disparage. SW provided attorneys managed the details and you had to show up where and when you were told. Not everyone trying to enter this country has that luxury. The major trouble you had was when your legally earned green card ended up in a fire in your native land. I just have trouble with you thinking you see it all and we have a perfect sheltered life and don't know the issues because we don't "live it" like you do. THAT was the point of the link to the article that I posted.
Hope you don't think my "hearts and flowers" are black and dead.
Any Senate bill would have to be merged with a much more stringent House of Representatives bill that stresses border security and defines all of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the country as felons...(and I add-- which they definitely ARE)
The compromise bill would divide illegal immigrants into three groups. The more than 7 million who have lived in the country for five years or more would get a chance to earn U.S. citizenship by paying a fine, paying taxes, learning English and meeting some other requirements.
This is an exerp from Reuters.
So Felonies can be dealt with by paying a fine, paying taxes (Retro-active??? I doubt it) and meeting some other requirements? We should all just go out and kill people, and steal, and pillage. Then ask for the same type of forgiveness the government wants us to hand over to these people. Trust me they knew it was wrong when they were doing it. That still doesn't make it any better.
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